Grappling with religious tolerance

[vaneramos]

I had an unpleasant experience with an LJer a few weeks ago, because he knew I was an atheist. I don't talk much about my beliefs. I am highly tolerant of other people's religion and spirituality until someone tries to project them onto me.

Well a gay writer friended me, expressed great admiration for my writing, and, without much preamble, started emailing his work and asking me to critique it. It was heavily permeated with Christian ideology, which was fine. But I kept feeling that he was trying to win me over, either through flattery or drawing me into a debate. I didn't bite.

Then one day he wrote to me, "You may not believe in God, but he still believes in you."

I took offense at that, and told him so. I said it gave me the impression that his correspondence with me had an agenda. He knew about my Christian background and should have known how his words would affect me. He responded that I was intolerant, and a hypocritice for advocating religious tolerance.

I wonder how he would have felt if I had turned the statement around and said, "You may believe in God, but he doesn't believe in you." It sounds like an insult to me.

I never addressed my beliefs to him except in response to his statements and inquires. I never invited him to discuss religion. I usually keep my beliefs to myself. Having them come under attack pushes a lot of emotional buttons. I told him I didn't want to communicate through email anymore, that our discussions should stay on LiveJournal. He emailed me again, but I let him have the last word. He never commented on my journal again, and a few days later he removed me from his friends list, and I reciprocated.

Some people seem to think atheism is some kind of default position, or that I chose it out of rebellion against God, so I deserve some kind of pity or charity.

On Tuesday I went for a walk with a friend. I told her I have begun to identify as polyamorous, and she came out to me as bisexual. That was a hurdle for both of us (and yes, Pete, she has received nasty, condescending criticism, especially from lesbians, for identifying as bi). Then, knowing that she is a committed Christian, I admitted I'm an atheist.

"Oh, Van, I'm so sorry!" she exclaimed.

She knew about my church history, and obviously assumed atheism was a result of disillusionment with the church. It wasn't.

"Actually I'm happy with it," I said. "I never felt that God or Jesus didn't love me. And I didn't stop loving God. I just realized that the existence of God didn't make sense to me anymore."

That realization was a difficult one. It came to a head after 9-11. If life just happens without supernatural intervention, if we're only here because that's the way the universe works, if there is no absolute good or evil, then what's the point in having values, and how do we choose them? I had to find answers to those questions, and I did.

Humans have evolved as social animals. We need community. So the needs of the individual must be balanced against the needs of the group. That's why we behave altruistically, and it's important for our survival. It even explains why we invent religions: to reinforce social values.

These are some of the things I believe, but I don't expect other people to buy into it. I wouldn't dream of criticizing anyone for believing in God, as long as their faith doesn't manifest as bigotry. A friendly, good-humoured debate can be illuminating, but I don't relish it.

Mostly, I just prefer people to respect that atheism is important to me and informs my values. In this way, it is the same as other people's beliefs.

Comments

[that-dang-otter.livejournal.com]

Funny that you wrote a post on religion at the very same time I was.

Humans have evolved as social animals. We need community. So the needs of the individual must be balanced against the needs of the group. That's why we behave altruistically, and it's important for our survival. It even explains why we invent religions: to reinforce social values.

Yeee---haaaw! Someone else understands that you don't need a transcendental basis for moral behavior, but that it is simply something we invent for our own needs.

IMHO, one of the greatest intellectual developments going on in the world right now is the understanding of morality through the confluence of game theory and evolutionary psychology. From the famous prisoner's dillemma tournament to the recent demonstration that even monkeys demand fairness, we are slowly unveiling a much more plausible foundation for everyday ethics.

And you know, it's more elegant, interesting, and beautiful than any religion I've seen. It's all still very fuzzy and complicated, but it's the light that guides my life. Sorry to be all hyperbolic, but that's how I feel.

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

Yikes, I'm running short of time right now, but I'll check out your post when I get home next week. Sounds interesting!

[stealthpup.livejournal.com]

Yeee---haaaw! Someone else understands that you don't need a transcendental basis for moral behavior, but that it is simply something we invent for our own needs.

Have you read James Morrow's Towing Jehovah? There's a chapter in there that relates to this that I'd love to get others' ideas on. I don't bring it up straightaway because it's a bit of a spoiler.

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

I have added it to my reading list!

[quirkstreet.livejournal.com]

I hope your bi woman friend said something appropriate once you explained that your atheism is nothing to feel sorry for you over. If there's one thing I've noticed, it's that even people who know each other fairly well, care about each other, and have accepted things about each other that we disagree on, can still find ourselves getting into misplaced shock or pity when a fresh surprise arises. If I ever get into that with you, let me know, and I'll get over it as fast as I can.

Coincidentally, I was thinking about you and Christianity just last night. I've been digging out old records looking for bass guitar parts to learn, and stumbled on my old records by The Call. Their lead vocalist explored his Christian beliefs in song after song. Never having gone seriously into Christianity myself, and since HIS Christianity was of a more politically liberal and humanist variety than most (I suppose U2's Bono or Peter Gabriel would be good points of comparison), I was never put off by it. In fact, it was attractive, because he explored human spiritual questioning, albeit in a specifically Christian way ... asking himself tough questions, rather than selling a point of view. Powerful, moving stuff. (I should also say, he was a very cute bear, which didn't hurt a bit.)

But I never know who I can discuss these things with. So many of the Christians I meet seem to want to over-share their beliefs with me; so many of my ex-Christian friends have been so beaten up by it, it's not good conversational fodder.

However, one thing I've always sensed about you is that you're deeply *spiritual*, theistically or otherwise. Which is one of the best things about you.

Anyway, being religiously tolerant doesn't mean you have to accept someone else's comments about YOU. It means you accept their faith about *themselves*. I would have felt much the same as you did with the person who tried to tell you about God's belief in you. That would cross the line into something about ME, not about the other person. And it doesn't take Christianity to get into these difficult waters: my Mom has gone into realms of "New Age" spirituality that I've had to ask her, on many occasions, NOT to share with me, *except as they apply to HER*. I have a few too many books on my shelves that I didn't ask for, and one or two that I asked NOT to receive.

I *love* your thoughts on morality based on community and creating social value, and thatdangotter's reply about game theory and so on. Me too, me too, this is very much along the lines I believe myself.

If you haven't already read Wendy Kaminer's "Sleeping With Extraterrestrials," you might find it fascinating. Among other things, she talks about the real misunderstanding and, in fact, oppression meted out to atheists, in a culture which is dominated by the idea that morality can only come from theistic bases.

I suppose I'm an agnostic deist myself--perhaps--I think the universe may possibly have underlying order or meaning, and possibly even room for an overarching intelligence (which, however, might be immanent rather than transcendant). But I don't think the universe is necessarily predicated on human needs (even though I am also intrigued by the anthropic principle). I DO think that whatever meanings may be present in the universe itself, it is human being who give meaning to ourselves, and that the more concsiously we choose what to believe and how to behave, rather than acting by rote, the better we do.

I'm rambling, I'll stop now. Thanks for a great post.

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

I think it was an enlightening conversation for my friend. Her initial reaction to my coming out as poly was guarded, but then she talked about being bi and the prejudice she has encountered, and she realized we faced some of the same hurdles. After I revealed I was an atheist, I could see she was struggling with her own reaction. She said "I'm not judging you several times," and called the next day to make sure I wasn't upset about the conversation.

Religious tolerance allows people to believe whatever they want. Strictly speaking, I must accept that some people will believe faggots are going to hell if I want to have the freedom to believe whatever I want. I don't have to go near them, and I don't have to like it when people criticize my beliefs. Intolerance is when we try to interfere with other people's rights, freedoms and opportunities. In other words I have to accept that some people will hold homophobic beliefs. I don't have to accept getting fired from my job because of my orientation, or laws that give special status or protection to heterosexuals.

It would be great to talk about this stuff more, Pete. Let's make a point of it. I have to get ready for the camping weekend.

not quite on-topic

[ranger1.livejournal.com]

An interesting quote I heard today: "Organized religion is for people who are afraid of going to hell. Spirituality is for people who have already been through hell."

Re: not quite on-topic

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

That's dead on. I have met many genuinely spiritual people who participated in organized religion, so I don't think the two are mutually exclusive, but they're not the same thing. Any more than a city and a community are the same thing.

[jaique.livejournal.com]

The main problem with Christianity (IMHO) is the belief that everyone who isn't Christian will suffer eternal agonies. You believe what you believe. If God has issues with that, he can strike you, like he did Saul on the road to Damascus and change your heart. Religion is one of the most devisive things on the planet. I think we need to struggle with these issues and truly come to our own peace with them, as you have done.

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

You have obviously come to your own peace, J. You are gracious, and one of the few people I actually enjoy arguing with. :-) Seriously, I have learned a lot from you over the years, particularly about tolerance. I realize our group has had one or two debates over that word itself, and the meaning of tolerance, but to me it is a virtue, and you are one of my models.

[dubious-one.livejournal.com]

Amen.

[currawong.livejournal.com]

I had some lj correspondence with a guy recently, who, seeing on my profile that i was interested in religious issues began a discussion in which he put foreward some fairly fundamentalist proposals. He claimed to be tolerant of others beliefs and would welcome a statement of my viewpoint. I challenged some of his pronouncements and pointed out some pretty glaring contradictions and anomalies in the bible. He said he'd think about this and give a considered reply to my remarks. He never got back to me and issued a post saying that he didn't want to speak to anyone who challenged his dearly held religious beliefs.

I came to atheism early. Sent to a hellfire and brimstone Sunday school by my nominally christian but totally unspiritual parents, I had a life-changing experience.

A heavyweight guest preacher had been imported from the US and we kids were put on bleachers in front of the congregation. He had a model of a human hand, about three times life-size which had a nail through it. This he proceeded to pull in and out of the hand as he urged us to think of the agony of Christ on the cross. He then asked us to come foreward and declare ourselves for Jesus, (which I think is caontradictory to the Baptist belief in making religious decisions only as a responsible adult).

Anyway, no matter how much he pleaded or harangued, not one child, to their eternal credit would come foreward for the creep. He had been far too nasty and frightening. It was a terrible embarrassment for the church but it engendered a healthy scepticism in me which lead me to question anything said by anyone who claimed to know what God thinks, or hates.

I'll tell you of an hilarious experience at the opening of Australia's first Four-Square Gospel church another time.

[danthered.livejournal.com]

My thoughts outgrew comment length, so I've posted them here instead.