Embattled love

[vaneramos]

Today a friend posted an account of how he fell in love with his wife, and what outside abuse they experienced together because of it. Their relationship broke her culture's traditions and her relatives set out to punish them for it. The story reminded me that gays are not the only people who face prejudice because of who they love.

In defending homosexuality, many people quickly point to research suggesting it is genetically based, but the results are far from conclusive. On the other hand, anti-gay psychology depends on developmental causes that supposedly can be counteracted, despite a lack of evidence that people can change their orientation at will.

Sexual preference probably arises from a variety of factors. Recently I have considered whether I might be bisexual. Past experiences have caused me to feel certain aversion to emotional intimacy with women. This is not true of all gay men, but in my case it could be argued that my orientation has arisen partly from psychological causes. As I experience healthier and happier friendships with women, the possibility of heterosexual attraction does not feel as remote as it once did.

Still I choose to love men because I like it better. So what if it's a choice?

Since our ancestors descended from the trees and slouched into their smoky caves, humans have set up legal systems and religions forbidding all kinds of harmless acts. Our world still holds taboos against loving people of a different race or the same sex, or loving more than one person. These rules have nothing to do with human nature or harmonious community, only with establishing a heirarchy of power. The institution of marriage submits to this authority. No relationship should be accorded privileges, excepting a child's relationship with his or her parents.

I have chosen to love a man and hope our relationship will continue for the rest of my life. I don't care whether this choice is ordained by my DNA or a consequence of early childhood experiences. To love him is as valuable as loving anyone else.

I have other people with whom I experience lesser emotional and sexual attachments. Likely other relationships will someday rise to eminent levels and play significant roles in my life. Cultural heritage suggests polyamory is immoral or abnormal, but nature persuades me otherwise.

Integrity and respect seem like useful tools for conduct. Within those constraints I expect to break the rules shamelessly. But shame is another matter, difficult to recognize and overcome in all its forms. It's the most obscure power society enacts against the individual.

Comments

[daisydumont.livejournal.com]

there's a test i've taken a few times, which you may be familiar with, called the Klein Grid. it allows for rating all sorts of factors of orientation, much more articulated in approach than the old Kinsey Scale. there are so many gradations of desire, both physical and emotional. i think bisexuality is a fluid thing, with possibilities of going up and down the scale (so to say) at various times for differing reasons.

it seems natural to me that there should be choices to make. the old kinsey scale had purely gay and purely straight at opposite ends of the line, with again a fluid range in the middle, where many choices could lie.

i'll shut up. this is interesting to me, though.
klein grid briefly explained

[quirkstreet.livejournal.com]

Still I choose to love men because I like it better. So what if it's a choice?

Yeah. Although a possible genetic basis for sexuality explains many things and has political uses, an analogy to religious freedom (including freedom from religion) is equally useful. Should I decide to become a Buddhist tomorrow, one would hope I would not be persecuted for my choice.

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

Interesting DD, and I hadn't heard of it before. I agree that sexuality is fluid. I've thought that way for years, but only recently felt any fluidity in myself. I would be interested in taking the test, but the site doesn't seem to provide any links to one.

[bitterlawngnome.livejournal.com]

I think one of the problems with trying to find "the cause of homosexuality" is that it's a bogus category. Many diverse behaviours and motivations (and therefore causes) lumped together for convenience in oppressing. :)

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

Besides, genetic arguments can easily be turned upside down and inside out. Some genes are inferior, right? Whether or not sexual orientation has a genetic component, we must still argue for value of expressing it and the freedom to do so.

[quirkstreet.livejournal.com]

Yes. And consider the whiff of internalized homophobia in the statements some people make when claiming a genetic basis for homosexuality: "I can't help it, I was born this way," for example. Er, ewwww.

I *could* stop sleeping with men, actually. But my life would be seriously diminished.

And it would not necessarily lead to MORE sleeping with women. Indeed, my sexual experiences with women have been more numerous and more fulfilling since coming out and developing healthy relationships with men. Knowing that, why would I *ever* talk about my sexuality as if it were some sort of curse or flaw, unless I were talking about some specific unhealthy thing (if I could think of one) that I needed to focus on?

As Bill points out, we're really talking about a complex phenomenon anyway (human sexuality in all its diversity), not something coded for on Chromosome 16 at one particular location.

Orientation

[ciddyguy.livejournal.com]

It will be interesting to try that test myself, out of curiosity. But for my experience and looking back, I know I was developing my orientation way back in adolescence/pre-teens. I was also very asexual up until 3 years ago when I had my first gay encounter, with a bisexual guy I had been chatting with.

I do distinctly recall thinking then how gross to be "violating" the woman's vagina and therefore could not see myself doing sexual intercourse, but have since done so with a man I was dating from last September until this past February.

I have never thought of myself as bisexual and while I do have lots of respect for women, I just don't see them as sex objects. When out and about, it's the good looking man I notice first over all else, have been this way for years.

It's those kinds of clues that lead me to believe we, who are gay, are born gay and have some kind of gene, one that isn't inherited, but we all have it to some degree and for some, it's greater than others and it's those of us who do, have a greater chance of becoming gay.

However, it's a choice to reconcile that part of ourselves and live our true selves or to deny it and never aknowledge that it even exists.

The interesting thing about my coming out experience is that I found out that I had a fetish before I knew I was even gay. The development of the fetish can be traced back, as far as I know to 1976/1977 time period. Before that, I didn't like dress shirts etc and after a strange incident with a former childhood friend (he touched his dick to mine, briefly, I was horrified, needless to say), I suddenly found myself looking at the Sears and/or Penny's catalogues at the men's dress shirts, ties and suits. My first actual playing with my clothes came in 1978 when I played with a navy blue 3pc suit I had, and the rest, as they say, is history.

anyhow, this is indeed an interesting argument and I would venture to say that I'm pure gay as I most prefer to be with a man in a sexual/erotic/sensual situation over all else.

To quote Michael "Mouse" Tolliver, "I'm as queer as a 3 dollar bill." :-)

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

Yes, and arguing about the cause is overly defensive, like reinterpreting the Bible to prove that it doesn't condemn homosexuality. Really we ought to think outside the box, rather than sorting out the oppressive mess inside it.

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

And it would not necessarily lead to MORE sleeping with women. Indeed, my sexual experiences with women have been more numerous and more fulfilling since coming out and developing healthy relationships with men.

This reminds me of how my relationship with Danny has allowed me to start to feeling more open, generous and diverse in the ways I express myself sexually with others. In fact, I believe the sense of affirmation and fulfilment in my principle desire is what leads me to the potentiality of experiencing intimacy with women.

[daisydumont.livejournal.com]

hmm, yeah, you're right. it was just a little illustration. here's the test, or close to it, better laid out. i'll take it again later on too. i don't see a key to it -- as in, if you get this score or that score, you're definitely bi (or whatever) -- but i think the taking of it is in itself revealing as an activity.
klein grid, again

[leafshimmer.livejournal.com]

Beautifully stated and phrased.

Didn't somebody once write, or sing: "The love you take is equal to the love you make"?

It's how I *choose* to live my life.

hugs, Shimmer

[quirkstreet.livejournal.com]

How fantastic that you posted about the Klein grid. You and Van might both be interested in this slightly transformed "take" on Klein's work: http://www.biresource.org/pamphlets/klein_graph.html. It asks people to consider not only their current attractions but their histories and their ideal sense of self.

Bobbi Keppel, one of the people who wrote and uses this revised version, often uses it to highlight for people the unexpected commonalities among their differences in sexual attraction or orientation. She reports that people often get interesting lightbulbs over their heads when they realize that the matter of sexual attraction and how we live our lives is more complex and interesting than many of our ways of talking about it give credit to.

It's also interesting to note the number of times that people who experience themselves as gay or lesbian end up sounding "more bisexual" than some bisexual people ... I imagine the same happens among bisexuals who are more other-sex oriented than I am and their straight-identified counterparts as well.

Van and I had a moment like this recently where I reported being less often attracted to women than he expected, perhaps even less attracted than he is, though I experience myself as more likely to ACT ON such attractions when they occur. :)

[eloquentwthrage.livejournal.com]

What about those of us who say, "I was born this way - so what? I wouldn't change even if I could."

[apel.livejournal.com]

You know I agree with you. As others have said, the issue what "causes" homo- or hetero-sexuality is a smokescreen. What matters is that love, affection and mutual respect are good things in and of themselves. Love does not need to be cirumscribed by irrational rules that create more misery than they prevent.

But then again, this is exactly the kind of reasoning you'd expect from a priestess of Aphrodite, isn't it? Ah, I'm so debauched. ;-)

[apel.livejournal.com]

"circumscribed" even.

[quirkstreet.livejournal.com]

It's always more wonderful to experience things from a starting point of wholeness and self-appreciation than from a sense of lack. Affirmation and fulfillment with Danny is a good thing, and if it happens to lead to affirmation and fulfillment with others, women, men, or whoever as well, so much the better.

Whatever sexual orientation is defined by, I can't help but think that all people would enjoy their lives much better if the pressure to conform to certain very limited kinds of heterosexuality and the penalties for straying weren't so extreme. Including many straight people. The varieties of healthy, consensual sexuality are many, but most of us have so much to unlearn on the way to becoming ourselves. I'm really glad you're getting your chance at blossoming.

[quirkstreet.livejournal.com]

Sounds great to me. I guess I should have been more careful with my phrasing: I think some of us really are either a) born a particular way, or b) become what we are so powerfully and at such a young age, that the difference from being "born that way" is no difference. I don't at all doubt that some people are 100% gay or straight, through and through.

I just get worried when people talk about being unstraight as a big problem. I remember having that mindset myself, but it wasn't healthy to carry around, and merely coming out of the closet didn't take care of it, the self-work had to continue.

Coping with other people's reactions can be a problem. Coping with our own stuff about it can be a problem. But my experience of my sexuality in and of itself, is basically joyful. And life gets better the more I allow that joy to be what it is. I can imagine that it's not equally joyful like that for other people--I don't want to say that there's necessarily "a problem" if it isn't--but I'd sure hate to talk as if *only* being gay led to sorrow, or as if sorrow is intrinsic to being gay, or inescapable. Which is all too close to how I hear some people talk about being gay, alas.

[daisydumont.livejournal.com]

oh, thank you! i've marked that page and will consult it.

i find the whole topic of attraction and desire so interesting. about 6 years ago, i finally faced the facts about who i am *inside* (as opposed to the vanilla-looking married woman i am situated in the world). the kinsey scale helped me sort out, in a very simplistic way, how to see myself (somewhere between a 1 and a 2, which sounds like a lawrence welk song but isn't *g*). this more subtle test should help sort it out even more. with me, it's a potentiality, since i've never acted on my attractions toward other women. well, once i had an exploratory conversation with a lesbian, but she was so hostile toward bisexuals in general that nothing happened. i gave up on the idea then and have just held inside the thought of the very different life i could be leading.

people are fascinating!

You Got Me Thinking.

[walterwz.livejournal.com]

Can there be any better integrity and respect as the basis of a relationship. Rising above the blind determinism of our cultural programming is a good thing I think.

I definitely went off a bit so I though I would add a link to the main thing:

Living At Higher Levels of Awareness (http://www.livejournal.com/users/walterwz/63355.html#cutid1)

[quirkstreet.livejournal.com]

the vanilla-looking married woman i am situated in the world

Grin. I'm somewhere between a 5 and a 6. You sound like Lawrence Welk, I sound like a dance-routine countdown ("a 5, a 6, a 5-6-7-8!") or a football huddle for innumerates who don't know many numbers. :)

Bisexuality is often a tough topic for lesbians. Seems to be easing up in recent years. Congratulations on having the wherewithal to sort out your insides, though. That always seems to make life better, with or without the part about acting on it.

People ARE interesting

[ciddyguy.livejournal.com]

While I see myself as gay through and through, more or less, I am well aware of the variable forms of gay and lesbianism that exist. As an orientation, I have no desire for women in a relationship context, but with a man, yes, definately. Now, I'm not into all men, nor are they all into me either.

I'm of average height, but slim to average and dress on the "prim" side, that is business attire or when not that, usually in the preppy fashion much of the time. I do have my butch tendancies too and I find it comes out when I wear leather, especially the black leather trench, but be that as it may, I do see myself more middle of the road in most respects.

I've had guys aske me if I am gay, and that was before I was even aware of being gay myself. :-)

As far as lesbians go, many are so anti male that it's scary and I've personally known some that were really dykes and belonged to the Freedom Socialists/Radical Wymen groups and boy, don't mess with 'em.

But on the other hand, I've known some lesbian couples who are wonderful so they do indeed run the gamut.

This is indeed an interesting subject that Van has brought up.

How Can You Contradict This?

[walterwz.livejournal.com]

A more refined consideration is attraction. In the narrow context of my own experience, I am not emotionally or physically attracted to everyone. I have had relationships where I liked the person, I enjoyed deep levels of intellectual and emotional intimacy with someone but felt no level of sexual arousal or attraction what so ever. I never had these feelings. I would never want to have these feelings. Of course this set of people starts with those in my immediate family.

If we can't even choose who we find attractive how could we imagine changing our sexual orientation?

[eloquentwthrage.livejournal.com]

*Rolling eyes* I know, all of us - meaning people -have pain and suffering in some aspect of their lives, I don't know what makes gay men (especially) think they have the monopoly on it.

[daisydumont.livejournal.com]

haha! :D

well, i think that particular woman had had some bad experience with a bisexual lover who ditched her for a man. Well of Loneliness, anyone? it was so understandable that i tried not to be personally disappointed by her attitude. and yes, it has made my life much more comprehensible, knowing where my feelings are coming from at times. hiding from oneself is exhausting!

Re: People ARE interesting

[daisydumont.livejournal.com]

yes, i think he's opened up a good discussion! :)

a friend of mine since childhood realized he was gay at about age 28. until then, he'd considered himself asexual, i think. when he called me long-distance to tell me his news, i made the awful mistake of not acting surprised. he was upset by that, but i made up for it by being completely enthusiastic about his coming out. back in the '70s, it was probably scarier than it would be nowadays, that process.