Just supposing

[vaneramos]

Just suppose believing in something could make it reality. Maybe humanity is the creator, and god the creation. Just by imagining him, we could invent Authority.

Pop.

And in thinking God hates fags, God would start to hate fags, compelling people into silence and violence. By thinking God wants us to defend ourselves using lethal force, people could justify holy war. This sounds like the workings of reality, doesn’t it?

Suppose someone stopped believing in poverty, drug addiction and HIV. He could make the world a better place. And by disbelieving in god, the devil and unicorns I could wipe out supernatural beings. By believing that consciousness ends in death I could destroy heaven and hell.

I don’t foresee anyone agreeing on what’s good for us, anytime soon. Using faith alone we could create such discord that life would end and the universe would evaporate.

It doesn’t matter what you believe. Believe as hard, clearly and virtuously as you can. It doesn’t take away your responsibility to think rationally and critically, to separate your hopes, desires and imaginings from the hot, vivid evidence of human learning and experience. Fairytales are entertaining and inspiring, but don’t build your lives on them.

Comments

[blue-by-you.livejournal.com]

This is incredibly thought-provoking, and there's stories in it, Van.

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

Thanks, Lisa. Many stories indeed, one for every living soul. The air is bursting with them.

[daisydumont.livejournal.com]

i agree with you thoroughly. sectarianism is a source of so much suffering in the world. if i convince myself that my god (who is the only god) wants this or that group dead, then i can do what i want to them as an agent of that god. it's terrifying, and it's happened over and over.

>the hot, vivid evidence of human learning and experience.

oh yeah.

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

When I first posted this, it said, "evidence of perception and experience," but I changed that immediately. Individual perceptions are inescapably subjective and ephemeral, and need to be weighed against the whole body of knowledge.

I've encountered sectarianism in startling places. Gay churches for example. I was shocked. That's one of the reasons I stopped expecting people to believe what I believe.

[daisydumont.livejournal.com]

do you mean the MCC? i looked into it several times on the web, and have a friend who used to go to one, but they strike me as too evangelical for my own personal comfort. other religious groups, like the Unitarians, have strong lesbigay subgroupings and are overall supportive, while being much less dogmatic.

i haven't looked into ethical societies, but that's a thought. they wouldn't force god on anyone who wasn't interested in god.

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

Yes, MCC. I imagine congregations vary, but it shocked me to hear a gay pastor preach that only Christians will go to heaven. It was an obvious case of manipulating religion to bolster one's own sense of security and superiority. It called my own faith (Christian at the time) into question.

I've never encountered a Unitarian congregation I didn't like. The emphasis was always on community rather than beliefs.

Ethical societies, is that the Quakers? I don't know much about them.

[daisydumont.livejournal.com]

oh yes, i like that slant on christianity less and less, that "we're the elect" thing.

liberal quakerism is a great deal like an ethical society, but what i was thinking was something called Ethical Culture, or similar. it doesn't look like it has a canadian expression, but it's in the US and england: ethical union.

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

That is quite intriguing.

[ciddyguy.livejournal.com]

What really bothers me are those who insist on forcing their views on everyone, be it about God, offensive language (whatever that entails to them), their theocratic/dogmatic ideals even if totally wrong and skewed as the "only" view there is - to them anyway.

Yet, we can believe in many things, but will they ever come about? Probably, probably not but in the end, we have to make those beliefs happen. They just don't happen all on their own.

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

Believing undoubtedly changes reality, perhaps not magically or supernaturally, but by altering ourselves and the way we interact with the world. So we have to be careful what we believe.

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

Yes, people seem to have a hard time grasping the idea of consequences.

[missprune.livejournal.com]

somewhat similar thoughts here lately. I do not understand the willingness of people to accept someone else's authority, someone else's idea of what is real.

Teach your children well

[bigmacbear]

Oh, it's quite simple, and it starts with indoctrination as children (yes, that word has "doctrine" as its root). Basically, you threaten children with eternal damnation in order to make them behave, and they will perforce believe what you want them to believe.

This explains why the Catholic school system is so important to the church, even as it is falling apart financially as nuns are replaced by lay teachers and tuition rises to unsustainable levels. It also explains why fundamentalists are so eager to home-school their children.

However, the public school system is just as much a system of indoctrination, albeit one with an enforced secular worldview. It's just not (necessarily) as effective without the concept of an angry God backing up its punishments.

Re: Teach your children well

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

I suggest less effective indoctrination is better. ;-)

But seriously, if our school systems reinforce flawed ideologies, what is the solution?

I believe children should be taught comparative religion, if only to understand the diversity of worldviews that influence our society. Lessons in critical thinking should also be mandatory. Some teachers give them. I had debates in school, but not until grade 12 English, and I didn't learn anything except to hold tighter to certain cherished ideas. In Marian's private, secular school, she was already required to engage in debates in grade 8. Students were also encouraged to view the purpose of debates as considering arguments from opposite perspectives.

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

I was not taught to be religious, but as a young adult was desperate to grab hold of something that was definite, to listen to people who seemed certain of their truth. That was why I turned religious. Only recently have I learned to live with ambiguity and insecurity, essential qualities of life as we know it.

[pr-bear.livejournal.com]

I can wholeheartedly relate, though I grew up with a VERY ROMAN CATHOLIC family. My parents were less rigid with religion in our household, nevertheless it was present, and to this day many in my extended family deeply believe in that faith. As a young adult in struggling, and dealing with myself being gay, I came to question my(then) faith... actually thrived at questioning anything related to the entity of GOD, I guess it's the scientist/rationalist, in me. Obviously other things came into the argument that had nothing to do with my sexuality, but alot of soul searching, and questioning endured. I came to one or various conclusions, most summarizing the fact that many of those who claim to believe in god only use it to justify their reality, and how they want to live it, and have others live it. Anything that, in their mind, threatens that is not worthy. Sometimes i think it's a necessary evil, because some individuals DESPERATELY NEED TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING, but that's another story. All can say is after many years I myself have learned to live and accept life with ambiguity, insecurity, and not knowing everything, as essential qualities of life as I know it. Ambiguity, and change are truly life's constants in my opinion. How we learn to manage that intangible "thing" is what makes life interesting.

[cowboygreg.livejournal.com]

Shades of The Lathe Of Heaven... before you decide which reality you want to create, be very sure you want all the consequences of your creation.

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

As a big LeGuin fan, I should have read it. I noticed it at the bookstore a couple weeks ago and wondered about it. Now it's on my list.

[rsc.livejournal.com]

You mean you don't subscribe to The LeGuin Rule: if you see a book by Ursula LeGuin that you haven't read, buy it immediately?

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

If I could afford to buy all the books I wanted, I would need a much larger home to contain the library.

[ironbark.livejournal.com]

Our primate ancestors soon after they started down the evolutionary road towards humanity started burying food, tools and artifacts with their dead.

Some have suggested that this shows they had a sense of "after life" and it is this that separates us from the non-humans.

Given that all cultures, ancient and modern have beliefs in the supernatural perhaps religiousity is an evolved adaptation.

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

It's quite possible. We're a social species, and I can see the point of a sense of authority in establishing and maintaining social order. Another possibility is that religion has developed as a means of expressing or diffusing a surfeit of mammalian emotional responses, such as fear, which previously played a larger role in survival: kind of a mechanism for giving our feelings over the the community, which takes responsibility for the wellbeing of its individuals. Actually, many adaptations work that way, old characteristics finding a new purpose.

Another question is, how will it work for us now?

[ironbark.livejournal.com]

Whatever the origins of religiousity since our environement is different its adaptive "fitness" and role must also have changed. If, as I understand your thoughts it represent respect for an externalised authority then we must ask the question "Do we still need an externalised authority or have we now developed other societal controls which function better. This could be a system of secular government or the authority of "science/education".