Pressure tactics

[vaneramos]

And now, a complaint.

What is it with guys trying to fuck me raw first thing in the morning? While I'm still groggy, a naked cock starts slinking around my back door, looking to see if I'll let him in. Does he think I'm high on endorphins, in love with him or something? I'm not talking about my lovers. They wouldn't be lovers if they acted that way.

You know, I love getting fucked. And I really hate this behaviour. I don't necessarily disapprove of unprotected anal sex, but trust is based on communication, not manipulation. This has happened so many times it doesn't even upset me anymore. My ass is tight enough I can just lie there and wait to see how long it takes him to realize he's being stupid.

Years ago I was one of the stupid ones. Stupid and lucky.

On the other hand, I am reminded of a good buddy I hooked up with last summer. We were both drunk and high that night (which doesn't happen very often), enjoying the company and having a good romp. Suddenly he got an idea, rolled over, fumbled mysteriously in the dark, produced condoms and lube, then asked if he could fuck me, which he had never done before.

When someone appeals to my best judgment rather than my worst, that is a good friend and a good fuck, and I'm not afraid to let down my guard. But I already knew that about him, which was why I happened to be high with him that night.

Comments

[eloquentwthrage.livejournal.com]

My ass is tight enough I can just lie there and wait to see how long it takes him to realize he's being stupid.

Bwahhh-haa-haa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

Hehe!

[bitterlawngnome.livejournal.com]

Just cause there's rubbing doesn't mean you're necessarily expected to blossom open right then and there :)

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

Well, when a guy is trying to penetrate me without a condom, hoping I'll just let it happen, I think I can tell. I've let it happen in the past, not anymore, but I know what he's trying to do.

[bitterlawngnome.livejournal.com]

That's just rude, dammit.

not pressure, just lack of commucation

[beartech420.livejournal.com]

Bro it just strikes me as a lack of commucation. Just tell him before you both fall asleep that you want to be awake and asked if you want to be fucked. Some men would not see it as a pressure tatic, you layung in bed together, your next to each other I assume you were having sex before you both fell asleep. I personal am the type of bottom who loves my men to please me with a stiff cock in the middle of the night or first thing in the morning. And before we would fall asleep I would tell him that.
"Hey stud, that fuckhole is yours all night and tomorrow morn, just grease your cock up and surprise me with your manhood".

I am kinda surprised that you would call it a pressure tactic. Your a man, you must understand a top's mindset. A top is always under the expectation to perform, to be channeling Priapus. It is his desire not only to fuck you, but to completely satify you, to leave you in the morning desiring him again whether he wants to see you or not.
At least a good top behaves that way. I would be grateful to meet these men. What you see as a pressure tactic I see as a considerate top giving 100 percent to please my manhole. Who wants to be know as a poor fucker.

Basically it is just a commications problem, just tell him what you want.
best regards,
pete
p.s. can i be premitted to read your fiction journal?

Re: not pressure, just lack of commucation

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

Perhaps I didn't make my point clear. I love getting fucked. I hate guys trying to manipulate me into letting them fuck me without a condom, and that's whay I'm talking about here.

Re: not pressure, just lack of commucation

[beartech420.livejournal.com]

Sorry bro, your completely correct!
I missunderstood your post!
If he fucked you with a condom the night before he damn well knows you don't bareback! Plus he's taking advantage of you because your not awake yet!He should be considerate enough to give you a nice backrub, cuddle and ask if you want to pass him the rubber and lube.
best regards,
pete

[vaysha.livejournal.com]

any sort of blind assumptions that way are so unsexy imho.

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it makes me reconsider whether I want to be sexual with this person at all.

[vaysha.livejournal.com]

I guess I would feel that the person is not really a very intuitive lover nor someone who is very communicative about times that might be more sensitive (ie your just waking) or important boundary considerations (like protection or that you might not feel like penetration any ole time, you know?)

I find communication and intuitive lovemaking sexy- I don't expect a lover to be a mind reader but being able to read body language is a bonus- I cannot imagine a scenario such as this without feeling some sort of tension in a lovers back, muscles, etc.

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I realize this guy is "not really a very intuitive lover". There wasn't much room for me to just relax and be myself with him. It's a good thing our sexual tastes are similar, or I would have found the whole encounter intolerable. Sadly, it's probably common for men to misunderstand body language and other intuitive cues that don't provide the message they want to hear. I used to be obtuse that way, might still be for all I know.

[artricia.livejournal.com]

Good! I've been thinking about this post and the last for a few days now, trying to figure out quite what to say. I'm really glad you're thinking twice about this person. He doesn't seem to have much respect for you, and I think that's a much more important concern with bondage.

I imagine domination/submission must come up in some way with bondage, even if it's not something you engage with actively. And I imagine it's even more difficult, because of that, to have casual sex with bondage. Domination/submission/bondage would seem to call for a lot of trust and a solid interpersonal rappoire. I hope you find someone (or find you already know someone) you can build up that kind of rappoire with, and that you can get what you desire.

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

As a matter of fact, yes. As I mentioned in a previous post, I have a couple of friends who are into bondage. I've been afraid to experiment with them because of their taste for sadism or domination, but as it's turning out, this experience has shown me I trust them more than a stranger to respect my boundaries.

[tim-e-bear.livejournal.com]

Sounds very inconsiderate, yes.

(has no personal perspective on this, though - never been fucked, rather expect I never will be... did once stroke the boyfriend's back early in the morning, and he rolled over and grabbed me and engaged in rigorous snuggling - wasn't my intention at all, but I wasn't exactly ANNOYED by it. This is as close as I can get to this feeling...sad, really...).

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

Well, this isn't really about fucking, it's about using a condom. Apart from that, spontaneous fun wouldn't offend me.

[tim-e-bear.livejournal.com]

Oh, I see. I misunderstood. As has been said before to me, I don't seem to read social cues very well (perhaps further proof, as someone I know alleges, that I may be autistic or Aspergeric or what have you... ;) ).

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

No, the fault is mine. You're not the only one who misread this post.

[furrbear.livejournal.com]

Rude. Selfish. Inconsiderate.

Fiction journal?

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

Yeah, blind_king. It's not currently active, but might be, later this fall.

[furrbear.livejournal.com]

Oh, this image post (http://furrbear.livejournal.com/237310.html) of mine is on topic.

[quirkstreet.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm with nearly everyone who has commented, all at once. I can totally envision being horny in the morning and rubbing my dick around your nether regions. But not because I'd be expecting you to open up. Because *I'm* comfortable enough with *you* to feel certain that you wouldn't get turned on and try to push your ass onto my unprotected cock. Which I've had people do, mind you.

But if you did that I'd swallow my shock and say, "Hold on, honey" and either put a rubber on or have a little process with you about safety and why I don't exchange fluids even *within* my immediate poly family, let alone outside it.

I would probably be troubled, at a minimum. Even if I had *appeared* to be "starting something".

So you might need to establish the case that this was manipulation. Perhaps you and I know each other somewhat better than the hypothetical person you're talking about, but then again, in a similar circumstance I can imagine you assuming the same thing about me and being wrong. Were there additional circumstances that would clarify this?

In connection with your previous post about meeting up with a bondage top for the first time and having some adjustment issues, I'm left wondering if there are normal adjustment issues going on, or communication problems that require input from BOTH parties. Even as the sub/bottom, you do get to say what's on your mind, right? Are other guys preventing that, or are you preventing yourself?

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

I'm not talking about someone rubbing his dick around my "nether regions" (I enjoy sliding my dick along a guy's ass crack, too, but always declare my intentions to avoid confusion). I'm talking about him pressing it repeatedly against my asshole while I was still half asleep. I have no doubt he intended to fuck me. This from a man who said he isn't usually into fucking because condoms make him lose his hard-on. Now I realize what that really means is, he's not into condoms.

As a hungry power bottom who in the past searched restlessly for the quintessential fuck, I'm sensitized to all kinds of tricks men have used trying to persuade me to let them fuck me bareback. It makes me so angry because when I was more lonely, vulnerable and needy of love, I used to let them do it.

[quirkstreet.livejournal.com]

I fear my being direct has come across as insensitive. If so, I'm very sorry. Certainly this is territory that brings up strong feelings of past hurt for you, and I'm absolutely sorry for adding any pain to that.

What I'd like to do is give you a long hug. What I can do right now is offer words.

I'm operating on the assumption (which I know could be wrong) that this person and the person in your last post were probably the same guy. I read your earlier post and felt concern and worry. You sketched a situation where there was some miscommunication which resulted in discomfort for you ... not pleasurable pain, but just pain. I didn't respond because I wasn't certain (in the midst of my work day) how to do the dance of validating submission and pain play while voicing my worry that this guy seemed sufficiently insensitive to be a risk for you. I didn't want to come across as upset with him, just register some concern for you.

The concern would spring from a similarity I think you and I share about things like this, not a judgment of you ... I sense that we are alike in needing to be cautious about not having too many BAD pain experiences. We both seem to need to retreat and heal from them a bit more than the average bear probably does. We "bruise" easily, perhaps, in both body and mind and heart. If you are like me in this, it makes pleasurable pain a complex thing to seek.

For me, it has meant being very cautious about who I play with. Even some pretty sophisticated, sensitive men have been insensitive enough to make ME need to retreat a bit.

So that was my constellation of feelings about your earlier post, and then you wrote this. Since you had framed the earlier post as involving some miscommunication, but you represented things as being basically okay once that was resolved, I didn't know whether you might not be talking about more of the same.

Maybe what I did was read in something about me that may NOT apply to you. When I'm in a vulnerable head space, including but not limited to my "bottom" head space, I can misread people's insensitivity as malice. This was my big issue with Jeb a few months ago, and as you know, I managed to trash a friendship because of that misreading.

I worried that you might be doing something similar here.

What I didn't realize was that this is part of a negative pattern other men have tried to play with you.

I'm truly sorry people have done that to you. And, alas, I'm aware of what it feels like to be lonely and vulnerable and to let people go too far, and let myself get damaged, before pulling back and setting good boundaries.

It's one reason I'm ultra cautious about exploring my submissive tendencies. I really admire your willingness and bravery in exploring those.

Again, I'm very sorry to have added any stress or pain to this experience. And I love you, as always.

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

Well Pete, not to worry. You didn't upset me. I was a little frustrated that people in general seemed to have misunderstood the meaning of the post, but that is obviously because I didn't give enough context or use clear enough language. Maybe I seem prickly because I'm being unusually direct, and using a critical voice that's uncommon to me?

I've been avoiding connecting this directly with the other post, partly because it distracts from separate issues I was dealing with there, and partly because the incident with the morning bareback attempt is not isolated or particular to this person. And really I'm not especially angry at him, but at a social pattern I've experienced.

Yes, it goes way back to my first boyfriend in 1996, who fucked me bareback one night without warning. When I expressed anger over it the next day, he became verbally abusive. He subsequently persuaded me to let him continue fucking bareback for a few weeks until I realized what an unhealthy relationship it was. I later came to believe he was HIV+ at the time. I was lucky.

But I have encountered these morning cocks much more recently, several times, and in people I would have expected to be respectful and protective toward any sex partner. I used to be afraid of my own emotional vulnerability and the capacity of men to exploit it. I'm really not afraid of it anymore, just angry at their irresponsibility and its potential to victimize others.

Hugs,
Van

[grandiva1968.livejournal.com]

I think you need hugs first thing in the morning, a bit of making out, even.  I've never been much for semi-conscious sex, bareback or otherwise.

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

One of the minor drawbacks of taking mirtazapine is that I'm groggy first thing in the morning, and not very receptive to any kind of stimulation. In the situation described, this is a good thing.

[grandiva1968.livejournal.com]

How about a smooch behind the ear before bringing you coffee?

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

That would please me!

[grandiva1968.livejournal.com]

That's what it's all about…

My two cents...

[blt4success66.livejournal.com]

I think you have every right afforded to you to be cautious about what goes where. I, too, have been terribly naive in the past but I have a pretty hard and fast rule about the "nether region". If you want in, you have to work for it.

...but of course, this point is moot because I'm celibate, right?

Re: My two cents...

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

You're sweet, Paul. I like it too much to make men work for it, but nowadays at least I'm too self-respecting to let them ignore safety rules.

Re: My two cents...

[blt4success66.livejournal.com]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being safety-minded, but from one bottom to another? I want them to work for it too. *evil grin*

[rfmcdpei.livejournal.com]

It's things like this that make me not trust other people. More's the pity that I tend to think of this as a good thing.

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

You know, I feel the same way. And I think this is part of the reason I have become so jaded about casual sex: not that it can't be enjoyable, but I get so tired of people not respecting the prescribed boundaries that I would rather avoid the hassle and spend time with people who I know will be considerate.

[lichtgespinst.livejournal.com]

Hi there Van,

as far as the topic goes it's really not my world and i can't say anything of value to you, but i do appreciate that i'm able to read about your experiences and i do with with respect and love for you.
hugs

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

Your words mean more to me than you can know. Years ago I was reading a book about writing, it might have been Annie Dillard's The Writing Life, and she said that in order to write powerfully you had to be willing to say things that would make people uncomfortable. I wanted to write powerfully and decided to follow that path (I can see how you have made the same choice). It scares me, too, but I often take discomfort as an indication that the narrative of my thoughts and feelings needs to be told. Not just for my own sake, but to open up the world for other people. My greatest fear is that people I care about will be feel distanced somehow. So I'm glad that you are not.
Love,
Van

[winterknight.livejournal.com]

maybe a rolled-up newspaper next to the condoms and lube?

i think there's a whole subset of guys who are guilty of this and there's a tangible difference between "i'm sleepy and my dick has gone a-wanderin'" and "if i apply the right pressure (mental or physical) i'll get what i've already been told i can't have". careful inspection will often show that the latter type apply this philophy in other times and venues than bed in the morning. y'know?

having been subjected far too much to the latter, and with ill effect unfortunately, i have an instinctive and sometimes violent lack of tolerance for the former, as well. my elbows are awfully sharp and handy. it's enough that i warn anyone sleeping in my bed before there are any misunderstandings or bruises. :p

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

Haha, a rolled-up newspaper! That supplies some wonderful images and really cheers me up about the whole nonsense.

I agree about the careful inspection, too. It's bringing some peripheral issues into focus.

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't think being asleep would be a problem, but considering I once had a lover whom I could mount and ride without waking, it's hard to say!

[dakoopst.livejournal.com]

Wow. I'm kinda of the opinion that anyone who tries to get around your safe-sex preference is, at best, poorly informed and, at worst, a total loser.

You are SO worth playing within the rules. SO worth it.

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

It occurs to me that knowing you're worth it is essential, and explains why I would let people cross that line once upon a time.

[paulintoronto.livejournal.com]

Hi Van: For what it's worth, you text was perfectly clear to me, and your reaction entirely understandable. I find it distressing how gay men seem to be sliding into the idea that barebacking is the default position and using condoms is just something that some people choose to do, almost like a weird fetish or kink, not to be taken seriously.

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

And the conventional wisdom is that it's young men who didn't experience the terrible '80s who are more likely to resist the use of condoms. What's odd about the comparison I made here is that the responsible buddy is in his 20s, while I've generally received the careless treatment from men closer to my own age.

I don't want to come off sounding too holy. I've not always taken condom use so much for granted, but now I do. I suppose having lovers whose welfare I must consider besides my own has brought this more sharply into focus.

Thanks for your words, Paul. I'm glad my meaning was clear.

[artricia.livejournal.com]

It doesn't surprise me too much that the people not wanting to use condoms are older. I was much better about using them when I was younger. I'm monogamous, but I can't use the pill, and after about a decade, it's really worn on me.

The half-asleep approach is a standard date rape scenario a lot of women deal with. I'm sorry to hear it might be commonplace in the gay community. I think it's true that manipulators and coercers manipulate and coerce elsewhere in life. That makes all of this a much larger societal problem. How can we tell people not to manipulate and coerce? It would be downright un-capitalistic.

[vaneramos.livejournal.com]

It's often assumed that men who lived through the tragedy of the 80s are more inclined to take precautions, while younger men resent being told what to do, and want to experience the free sex they missed. In my experience so far, that assumption is false.

Your point about capitalism and manipulation gives me something to chew on.